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Post by YankeeFan on Dec 5, 2023 15:38:49 GMT
The two kids that are disruptive in my daughter's school year -- one is in the other class this year, but the one who is in her class absolutely makes her bonkers -- receive no discipline.
Both are disruptive in class, and both are assholes on the playground. They push and shove. They get in the physical space of other kids. They put their hands on the other kids.
And, we've tried many times to explain to our daughter that these kids don't have ideal home lives, and that we should try to show them patience and grace, but I've also had to call the one kid over at the playground -- in front of (one of) his mother(s) -- and tell him he needed to not touch or push my daughter, or he would have a problem with me.
The kid in her current class has a hippy, single mom, who sits in the car after school, while her kid acts like an asshole on the playground. Dad left her for another man, so I'm sure there's a lot of emotional issues going on, but the mom seems completely disinterested.
We know the mom of the other kid, who's not in her class, much better. She and her wife are both liberal educators.
The kid does not have a bed time. The kid didn't do his homework all of last year, because he didn't like to, and she was ok with that.
The kid is a terror on the playground, but she does nothing about it. When I told her kid to behave she was not offended. She was actually pleased, hoping that maybe it would help. She acted like she had given up trying.
My wife and daughter came home yesterday with a story about him.
When school was let out, his mom told him they couldn't go to the playground because he had to go to swim lessons.
Apparently, he called her by her first name, told her he was going to the playground, and headed off to play.
I asked what happened next, and was told she followed him there, and told him he could play for only five minutes, but then she kept extending that time.
There is a time for giving your kids the room and space to make decisions and to fail, and learn from their decisions.
But she seems to have abandoned parenting. She lets him rule her, and it's having poor results.
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Post by doctorquant on Dec 5, 2023 15:41:46 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2023 15:52:50 GMT
The two kids that are disruptive in my daughter's school year -- one is in the other class this year, but the one who is in her class absolutely makes her bonkers -- receive no discipline. Both are disruptive in class, and both are assholes on the playground. They push and shove. They get in the physical space of other kids. They put their hands on the other kids. And, we've tried many times to explain to our daughter that these kids don't have ideal home lives, and that we should try to show them patience and grace, but I've also had to call the one kid over at the playground -- in front of (one of) his mother(s) -- and tell him he needed to not touch or push my daughter, or he would have a problem with me. The kid in her current class has a hippy, single mom, who sits in the car after school, while her kid acts like an asshole on the playground. Dad left her for another man, so I'm sure there's a lot of emotional issues going on, but the mom seems completely disinterested. We know the mom of the other kid, who's not in her class, much better. She and her wife are both liberal educators. The kid does not have a bed time. The kid didn't do his homework all of last year, because he didn't like to, and she was ok with that. The kid is a terror on the playground, but she does nothing about it. When I told her kid to behave she was not offended. She was actually pleased, hoping that maybe it would help. She acted like she had given up trying. My wife and daughter came home yesterday with a story about him. When school was let out, his mom told him they couldn't go to the playground because he had to go to swim lessons. Apparently, he called her by her first name, told her he was going to the playground, and headed off to play. I asked what happened next, and was told she followed him there, and told him he could play for only five minutes, but then she kept extending that time. There is a time for giving your kids the room and space to make decisions and to fail, and learn from their decisions. But she seems to have abandoned parenting. She lets him rule her, and it's having poor results. We encounter kids like that, too. This one set of twins is always at the epicenter of shit going sideways. I’m friends with their dad, and he’s always kind of shrugging it off as “boys being boys,” which is fine only to a certain extent, and only with willing co-participants. I weirdly take it as a compliment when my kids complain about and are confused by those kids acting the fool. And you can tell who the neglected kids are from a mile away. I’ve coached a few of them, and chaperoned others. They light up like Christmas trees at the slightest amount of individual attention. I worry that my wife is becoming one of those parents. First off, she works all the time, so I handle pretty much ALL of the parenting. When she does do things with the kids, I sometimes hear them talk to me about how they don’t like when mom takes them to class/practice/whatever because she spends the whole time on her phone. I tell her these things all the time, and tell her she’s putting incredible, perhaps unrecoverable, strain on her relationship with the kids. But that’s where my part ends — the rest is up to her. |
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Post by doctorquant on Dec 5, 2023 16:13:57 GMT
I weirdly take it as a compliment when my kids ... are confused by those kids acting the fool. Once we were staying at my brother-in-law's house (when he was stilled married to Wife No. 1) and were awakened deep in the night by a God-awful commotion downstairs. Turns out the son, maybe 5 or 6 then, had an earache. The commotion had not that much to do with the earache, but rather the prospect of taking a dose of children's ibuprofen (the flavored syrup kind). There was pleading. There was negotiating. There was bargaining. And there were our kids looking at MommaQuant and me with this "What the fuck?" look. P.S. The son, now 28, has turned out to be an absolute loser ... and a shit, to boot. |
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Post by dirtybird on Dec 5, 2023 17:19:38 GMT
I weirdly take it as a compliment when my kids ... are confused by those kids acting the fool. Once we were staying at my brother-in-law's house (when he was stilled married to Wife No. 1) and were awakened deep in the night by a God-awful commotion downstairs. Turns out the son, maybe 5 or 6 then, had an earache. The commotion had not that much to do with the earache, but rather the prospect of taking a dose of children's ibuprofen (the flavored syrup kind). There was pleading. There was negotiating. There was bargaining. And there were our kids looking at MommaQuant and me with this "What the fuck?" look. P.S. The son, now 28, has turned out to be an absolute loser ... and a shit, to boot. It was the parents doing all that, I assume? The commotion causing and such? I was definitely a kid who would fight that kind of stuff. Which I assume would either be met with a workaround or being told my ear was gonna hurt until I took it, so I could either do it now or later. |
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Post by oop on Dec 5, 2023 18:38:24 GMT
The good cop - bad cop routine is not good either. You've really got to be on the same page, or the kids get mixed messages, and they will also use the situation to manipulate. We've got friends we met through the school. They've got two young (kindergarten & pre-school) boys, who are pretty loud and rowdy. He's latin. Dad was military, so he was raised strict. He's also a genius -- graduated early, has an MBA and a law degree, and has made a shit ton of money as an investment banker. She's super laid back. And, I'm sure her lack of discipline with the kids is meant, in her mind, to compensate for his strictness, but they'd be better trying to find a common ground. We had them over for dinner on a Friday night -- and I've previously, and since even more strenuously said that we should not make dinner plans with the kids on a Friday, because they are too fried from the week -- and the older son melted down a bit right before dessert. And the dad wanted him to reign it in, and apologize, and the whole bid in order to get dessert. And the kid tried, but he basically just couldn't do it, or do it right, leaving each of them more frustrated. But the thing was, the kid wasn't being bad. He was just being a kid. A tired kid. And, I think the dad was getting embarrassed, which was unnecessary. I actually talked to him a bit about it at a later date. About giving his kid a little more room to make mistakes, and for him to not feel like he needs to "break" his kid. That's a good way to end a friendship. Hopefully, he took your advice in the spirit in which you offered it. Overall, I agree about the good cop, bad cop routine. Children need consistency, not mixed messages. |
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Post by oop on Dec 5, 2023 18:39:37 GMT
Yeah, the Internet doesn’t lend itself to conversations like the one that needs to happen. Neither does the inability (not yours, just in general) to identify valid sources of information. About the Examiner, I worked there. So did my wife. So did several of our friends. I have two friends who STILL work there. I’ve conducted budget meetings and witnessed firsthand their editorial decision-making processes. They are hacks and almost anything they publish can be safely dismissed as hackery. If they don’t like it, tough shit. You reap what you sow. We shouldn't reward click bait, but we all do. If one of us starts a thread about the best guitarists of all time, it might not get a lot of attention. But, if Rolling Stone puts out a list of the top 100 guitarists of all time, then that might get the discussion rolling. We all want to comment on how good or bad the list is. This article is not very different. The more controversial the article/argument/claim is, the more likely it will generate a response. Using an untrustworthy report to take a swipe at the political group you don't like isn't the same as a ranking of great guitar players. |
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Post by oop on Dec 5, 2023 18:42:28 GMT
No, there is not validity to a study that begins with that sort of bias. Can you tell me -- in your own words -- what bias you believe the study begins with? Because, it seems to me, the issue they are exploring is vital. Raising healthy -- in mind and body -- kids crucial, and the most important thing we can do. So, learning about what contributes to healthy kids is a good thing. And, it turns out, that most of what makes kids mentally healthy is not "baked in the cake". It's mostly not based on family income, on race, or ethnicity. It's based on parenting. This is how the guy who ran the study (A Princeton educated PhD., just in case smallpotatoes is lurking) introduced what they wanted to study, and what they found: After a decade of surging adolescent mental health problems and suicide, the nation’s leading public health authorities have declared an emergency. Unfortunately, the solutions proposed by organizations like the CDC and the American Academy of Pediatrics—such as increased funding for diagnostic and psychiatric services—do not meet the challenge and ignore what are likely to be the most important causes. Adolescent biology hasn’t changed.
My colleagues and I at Gallup launched a study this summer to understand the causes. We surveyed 6,643 parents, including 2,956 who live with an adolescent, and we surveyed an additional 1,580 of those adolescents. We asked about mental health, visits to doctors, parenting practices, family relationships, activities, personality traits, attitudes toward marriage, and other topics, including excessive social media use, as discussed in prior work. I present the results in a new Institute for Family Studies and Gallup research brief.
The findings are clear. The most important factor in the mental health of adolescent children is the quality of the relationship with their caregivers. This, in turn, is strongly related to parenting practices—with the best results coming from warm, responsive, and rule-bound, disciplined parenting. The data also reveal the characteristics of parents who engage in best-practices and enjoy the highest quality relationships.
When it comes to the quality of parenting practices and the quality of child-parent relationships, there is no variation by socioeconomic status. The results may be shocking to many highly educated Americans who were taught to believe that socioeconomic status dictates everything good in life. Income doesn’t buy better parenting, and more highly educated parents do not score better, either. Parenting style and relationship quality also do not meaningfully vary by race and ethnicity within our U.S. sample.
These results are not unique to the Gallup sample. In 1997 and 1998, the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics collected summary data on adolescent parent-child relationships. My analysis of these data shows that parental income, wealth, and race/ethnicity don’t bear any relationship with the parenting measures predictive of the long-term well-being of children. Education explained less than 1% of the variation.ifstudies.org/blog/parenting-is-the-key-to-adolescent-mental-healthNow, the above seems pretty uncontroversial. It's when we get to this part that people get pissed off. Yet, some parental characteristics do matter. Political ideology is one of the strongest predictors. Conservative and very conservative parents are the most likely to adopt the parenting practices associated with adolescent mental health. They are the most likely to effectively discipline their children, while also displaying affection and responding to their needs. Liberal parents score the lowest, even worse than very liberal parents, largely because they are the least likely to successfully discipline their children. By contrast, conservative parents enjoy higher quality relationships with their children, characterized by fewer arguments, more warmth, and a stronger bond, according to both parent and child reporting.
Aside from political ideology, parents who think highly of marriage—by disagreeing that it is an outdated institution and agreeing that it improves the quality of relationships by strengthening commitment—exhibit better parenting practices and have a higher quality relationship with their teens. Parents who wish for their own children to get married someday also tend to be more effective parents. Those who embrace a pro-marriage view on all three have the best outcomes.
Other relationships seem to affect the current child-parent relationship. Parents who give high ratings to their relationship with their spouse or romantic partner are also more likely to adopt best practice parenting strategies and enjoy higher quality relationships with their teens.
When we read this, do we get pissed off because we think it's wrong, or do we get pissed off because we think it might be right? Here's the whole study: ifstudies.org/ifs-admin/resources/briefs/ifs-gallup-parentingteenmentalhealthnov2023.pdf If you think there is some flaw, that would lead to this outcome, I'd be curious to have you point it out. I don't get pissed off at all. I look at the source. I realize that that the research was done with a political agenda and realize that it cannot be trusted no matter how they try to frame it. I roll my eyes, mock the people citing it and move on. It is a worthwhile topic approached in an invalid way. The questions you ask can be used to manipulate the data. You do realize that, right? |
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Post by oop on Dec 5, 2023 18:43:43 GMT
The flaw is believing these things break evenly along political lines, and using caricatures of political ideologies to “prove” its “points.” For every namby-pamby liberal who screws up their kid, I can point to a rock-ribbed, freedom-loving conservative who fucked their kids up just as badly. The two most ultra-conservative people in my family, my brother’s wife and my wife’s sister, are fucking terrible parents and three of their four children have irreversibly screwed up what were once promising lives as a result. The only kid who is relatively well adjusted is the one who just came out of the closet. Go figure. Sir, this post was directed at oop . Please do not answer for him. Why can't he answer, too? You rely on people answering questions for you here all the time. |
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Post by oop on Dec 5, 2023 18:46:35 GMT
Speaking of logical fallacies, you do like to whack away at straw men. Look at the site that is the source of the study in the OP. The issue isn't their faith or ideology. The issue is the agenda of the organization. |
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Post by pallister on Dec 5, 2023 18:50:33 GMT
On second thought, this thread is where oop belongs. |
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Post by oop on Dec 5, 2023 18:57:15 GMT
I weirdly take it as a compliment when my kids ... are confused by those kids acting the fool. Once we were staying at my brother-in-law's house (when he was stilled married to Wife No. 1) and were awakened deep in the night by a God-awful commotion downstairs. Turns out the son, maybe 5 or 6 then, had an earache. The commotion had not that much to do with the earache, but rather the prospect of taking a dose of children's ibuprofen (the flavored syrup kind). There was pleading. There was negotiating. There was bargaining. And there were our kids looking at MommaQuant and me with this "What the fuck?" look. P.S. The son, now 28, has turned out to be an absolute loser ... and a shit, to boot. I've seen this with my sister-in-law and her husband. I can give many examples. At one point, my niece told my daughter that she noticed we set boundaries for her and actually made sure she respected them. She actually told my daughter she was jealous. Of course, that didn't stop my niece from continuing to ignore what her parents told her and generally being a pain in the ass. Her brother, however, is a good guy with a good job. Parenting can only do so much, positive and negative. My half brother's childhood was a mess. Our father died when he was 10 and his mother is a disaster. My father was a Republican who would have loved Trump as president. I have no idea about the politics of my little brother's mother. Despite that childhood, he has a good job, a stable marriage and two wonderful little kids. No. 3 is on the way. Go figure. |
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Post by oop on Dec 5, 2023 19:19:12 GMT
On second thought, this thread is where oop belongs. You had a thought? I guess there really is a first time for everything. |
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Post by doctorquant on Dec 5, 2023 19:33:49 GMT
It was the parents doing all that, I assume? The commotion causing and such? I was definitely a kid who would fight that kind of stuff. Which I assume would either be met with a workaround or being told my ear was gonna hurt until I took it, so I could either do it now or later. It was the kid. |
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Post by dirtybird on Dec 5, 2023 19:54:28 GMT
It was the parents doing all that, I assume? The commotion causing and such? I was definitely a kid who would fight that kind of stuff. Which I assume would either be met with a workaround or being told my ear was gonna hurt until I took it, so I could either do it now or later. It was the kid. Gotcha. |
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