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Post by YankeeFan on Dec 5, 2023 13:58:32 GMT
The good cop - bad cop routine is not good either.
You've really got to be on the same page, or the kids get mixed messages, and they will also use the situation to manipulate.
We've got friends we met through the school. They've got two young (kindergarten & pre-school) boys, who are pretty loud and rowdy.
He's latin. Dad was military, so he was raised strict. He's also a genius -- graduated early, has an MBA and a law degree, and has made a shit ton of money as an investment banker.
She's super laid back. And, I'm sure her lack of discipline with the kids is meant, in her mind, to compensate for his strictness, but they'd be better trying to find a common ground.
We had them over for dinner on a Friday night -- and I've previously, and since even more strenuously said that we should not make dinner plans with the kids on a Friday, because they are too fried from the week -- and the older son melted down a bit right before dessert.
And the dad wanted him to reign it in, and apologize, and the whole bid in order to get dessert. And the kid tried, but he basically just couldn't do it, or do it right, leaving each of them more frustrated.
But the thing was, the kid wasn't being bad. He was just being a kid. A tired kid.
And, I think the dad was getting embarrassed, which was unnecessary. I actually talked to him a bit about it at a later date. About giving his kid a little more room to make mistakes, and for him to not feel like he needs to "break" his kid.
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Post by YankeeFan on Dec 5, 2023 14:03:49 GMT
It's kinda hard to not have arguments like this when "having a real conversation" involves starting with my priors and maintaining my values tradeoff throughout (otherwise it's trolling, or indulging white male grievance, or fear porn, etc.). Dismissing information because it got reported on in outlet Y (or not in outlet Z) ain't exactly Chautauqua-Like, either. Having said that, I weighed in with regards to the reactions to the piece -- "The Washington Examiner!" ... "bias!" ... "no validity!" -- not the piece itself. Yeah, the Internet doesn’t lend itself to conversations like the one that needs to happen. Neither does the inability (not yours, just in general) to identify valid sources of information. About the Examiner, I worked there. So did my wife. So did several of our friends. I have two friends who STILL work there. I’ve conducted budget meetings and witnessed firsthand their editorial decision-making processes. They are hacks and almost anything they publish can be safely dismissed as hackery. If they don’t like it, tough shit. You reap what you sow. We shouldn't reward click bait, but we all do. If one of us starts a thread about the best guitarists of all time, it might not get a lot of attention. But, if Rolling Stone puts out a list of the top 100 guitarists of all time, then that might get the discussion rolling. We all want to comment on how good or bad the list is. This article is not very different. The more controversial the article/argument/claim is, the more likely it will generate a response. |
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Post by doctorquant on Dec 5, 2023 14:08:24 GMT
Everybody's got a small-n tale of how this, that or the other thing was great/good/bad/horrible parenting as evidenced by this well-adjusted/mal-adjusted superstar/regular Joe/sociopath. Parenting, a never-ending string of singular occurrences, ain't like that. Are there central tendencies, certain constellations of actions likely worthy of emulation? Sure ... but even they ain't guaranteed. When thinking about parenting, I never can get out of my mind this Robert Fulghum quote:
And for those of you who simply can't devote the energy to read something carefully, note that it's "part of an answer," not "the answer."
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Post by YankeeFan on Dec 5, 2023 14:20:23 GMT
Look, maybe the Institute for Family Studies and the Washington Examiner are just looking to own the Libs. They are being really mean. But, is there any validity to the claim? Certainly how kids are raised matters, right? And a lot of this is commons sense. Would any of you be surprised if the kids of my favorite internet liberals were anxious, or depressed? Are Liz's kids anxious and depressed? Can you imagine if Taylor Lorenz had kids? No, there is not validity to a study that begins with that sort of bias. Can you tell me -- in your own words -- what bias you believe the study begins with? Because, it seems to me, the issue they are exploring is vital. Raising healthy -- in mind and body -- kids crucial, and the most important thing we can do. So, learning about what contributes to healthy kids is a good thing. And, it turns out, that most of what makes kids mentally healthy is not "baked in the cake". It's mostly not based on family income, on race, or ethnicity. It's based on parenting. This is how the guy who ran the study (A Princeton educated PhD., just in case smallpotatoes is lurking) introduced what they wanted to study, and what they found: After a decade of surging adolescent mental health problems and suicide, the nation’s leading public health authorities have declared an emergency. Unfortunately, the solutions proposed by organizations like the CDC and the American Academy of Pediatrics—such as increased funding for diagnostic and psychiatric services—do not meet the challenge and ignore what are likely to be the most important causes. Adolescent biology hasn’t changed.
My colleagues and I at Gallup launched a study this summer to understand the causes. We surveyed 6,643 parents, including 2,956 who live with an adolescent, and we surveyed an additional 1,580 of those adolescents. We asked about mental health, visits to doctors, parenting practices, family relationships, activities, personality traits, attitudes toward marriage, and other topics, including excessive social media use, as discussed in prior work. I present the results in a new Institute for Family Studies and Gallup research brief.
The findings are clear. The most important factor in the mental health of adolescent children is the quality of the relationship with their caregivers. This, in turn, is strongly related to parenting practices—with the best results coming from warm, responsive, and rule-bound, disciplined parenting. The data also reveal the characteristics of parents who engage in best-practices and enjoy the highest quality relationships.
When it comes to the quality of parenting practices and the quality of child-parent relationships, there is no variation by socioeconomic status. The results may be shocking to many highly educated Americans who were taught to believe that socioeconomic status dictates everything good in life. Income doesn’t buy better parenting, and more highly educated parents do not score better, either. Parenting style and relationship quality also do not meaningfully vary by race and ethnicity within our U.S. sample.
These results are not unique to the Gallup sample. In 1997 and 1998, the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics collected summary data on adolescent parent-child relationships. My analysis of these data shows that parental income, wealth, and race/ethnicity don’t bear any relationship with the parenting measures predictive of the long-term well-being of children. Education explained less than 1% of the variation.ifstudies.org/blog/parenting-is-the-key-to-adolescent-mental-healthNow, the above seems pretty uncontroversial. It's when we get to this part that people get pissed off. Yet, some parental characteristics do matter. Political ideology is one of the strongest predictors. Conservative and very conservative parents are the most likely to adopt the parenting practices associated with adolescent mental health. They are the most likely to effectively discipline their children, while also displaying affection and responding to their needs. Liberal parents score the lowest, even worse than very liberal parents, largely because they are the least likely to successfully discipline their children. By contrast, conservative parents enjoy higher quality relationships with their children, characterized by fewer arguments, more warmth, and a stronger bond, according to both parent and child reporting.
Aside from political ideology, parents who think highly of marriage—by disagreeing that it is an outdated institution and agreeing that it improves the quality of relationships by strengthening commitment—exhibit better parenting practices and have a higher quality relationship with their teens. Parents who wish for their own children to get married someday also tend to be more effective parents. Those who embrace a pro-marriage view on all three have the best outcomes.
Other relationships seem to affect the current child-parent relationship. Parents who give high ratings to their relationship with their spouse or romantic partner are also more likely to adopt best practice parenting strategies and enjoy higher quality relationships with their teens.
When we read this, do we get pissed off because we think it's wrong, or do we get pissed off because we think it might be right? Here's the whole study: ifstudies.org/ifs-admin/resources/briefs/ifs-gallup-parentingteenmentalhealthnov2023.pdf If you think there is some flaw, that would lead to this outcome, I'd be curious to have you point it out. |
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Post by YankeeFan on Dec 5, 2023 14:23:31 GMT
Everybody's got a small-n tale of how this, that or the other thing was great/good/bad/horrible parenting as evidenced by this well-adjusted/mal-adjusted superstar/regular Joe/sociopath. Parenting, a never-ending string of singular occurrences, ain't like that. Are there central tendencies, certain constellations of actions likely worthy of emulation? Sure ... but even they ain't guaranteed. When thinking about parenting, I never can get out of my mind this Robert Fulghum quote: And for those of you who simply can't devote the energy to read something carefully, note that it's " part of an answer," not "the answer." This hits home. Having a kid made me appreciate the job my parents did more than ever. And there were 6 of us! Plus, I was a pain in the ass as a teenager. I wish my parents had been around to enjoy getting to know my daughter. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2023 14:52:59 GMT
I’m under no delusions that everything I do as a parent is perfect.
My No. 1 goal is making sure my kids are A) not assholes, and 2) comfortable in their own skin, which I never was due to relentless disciplining.
I give them enough rope to make their own decisions, but am there as a safety net in case they make the “wrong” one. I have exhibited more patience than I ever thought myself capable of.
And they still stress out about things.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2023 14:58:59 GMT
Can you tell me -- in your own words -- what bias you believe the study begins with? Because, it seems to me, the issue they are exploring is vital. Raising healthy -- in mind and body -- kids crucial, and the most important thing we can do. So, learning about what contributes to healthy kids is a good thing. And, it turns out, that most of what makes kids mentally healthy is not "baked in the cake". It's mostly not based on family income, on race, or ethnicity. It's based on parenting. This is how the guy who ran the study (A Princeton educated PhD., just in case smallpotatoes is lurking) introduced what they wanted to study, and what they found: After a decade of surging adolescent mental health problems and suicide, the nation’s leading public health authorities have declared an emergency. Unfortunately, the solutions proposed by organizations like the CDC and the American Academy of Pediatrics—such as increased funding for diagnostic and psychiatric services—do not meet the challenge and ignore what are likely to be the most important causes. Adolescent biology hasn’t changed.
My colleagues and I at Gallup launched a study this summer to understand the causes. We surveyed 6,643 parents, including 2,956 who live with an adolescent, and we surveyed an additional 1,580 of those adolescents. We asked about mental health, visits to doctors, parenting practices, family relationships, activities, personality traits, attitudes toward marriage, and other topics, including excessive social media use, as discussed in prior work. I present the results in a new Institute for Family Studies and Gallup research brief.
The findings are clear. The most important factor in the mental health of adolescent children is the quality of the relationship with their caregivers. This, in turn, is strongly related to parenting practices—with the best results coming from warm, responsive, and rule-bound, disciplined parenting. The data also reveal the characteristics of parents who engage in best-practices and enjoy the highest quality relationships.
When it comes to the quality of parenting practices and the quality of child-parent relationships, there is no variation by socioeconomic status. The results may be shocking to many highly educated Americans who were taught to believe that socioeconomic status dictates everything good in life. Income doesn’t buy better parenting, and more highly educated parents do not score better, either. Parenting style and relationship quality also do not meaningfully vary by race and ethnicity within our U.S. sample.
These results are not unique to the Gallup sample. In 1997 and 1998, the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics collected summary data on adolescent parent-child relationships. My analysis of these data shows that parental income, wealth, and race/ethnicity don’t bear any relationship with the parenting measures predictive of the long-term well-being of children. Education explained less than 1% of the variation.ifstudies.org/blog/parenting-is-the-key-to-adolescent-mental-healthNow, the above seems pretty uncontroversial. It's when we get to this part that people get pissed off. Yet, some parental characteristics do matter. Political ideology is one of the strongest predictors. Conservative and very conservative parents are the most likely to adopt the parenting practices associated with adolescent mental health. They are the most likely to effectively discipline their children, while also displaying affection and responding to their needs. Liberal parents score the lowest, even worse than very liberal parents, largely because they are the least likely to successfully discipline their children. By contrast, conservative parents enjoy higher quality relationships with their children, characterized by fewer arguments, more warmth, and a stronger bond, according to both parent and child reporting.
Aside from political ideology, parents who think highly of marriage—by disagreeing that it is an outdated institution and agreeing that it improves the quality of relationships by strengthening commitment—exhibit better parenting practices and have a higher quality relationship with their teens. Parents who wish for their own children to get married someday also tend to be more effective parents. Those who embrace a pro-marriage view on all three have the best outcomes.
Other relationships seem to affect the current child-parent relationship. Parents who give high ratings to their relationship with their spouse or romantic partner are also more likely to adopt best practice parenting strategies and enjoy higher quality relationships with their teens.
When we read this, do we get pissed off because we think it's wrong, or do we get pissed off because we think it might be right? Here's the whole study: ifstudies.org/ifs-admin/resources/briefs/ifs-gallup-parentingteenmentalhealthnov2023.pdf If you think there is some flaw, that would lead to this outcome, I'd be curious to have you point it out. The flaw is believing these things break evenly along political lines, and using caricatures of political ideologies to “prove” its “points.” For every namby-pamby liberal who screws up their kid, I can point to a rock-ribbed, freedom-loving conservative who fucked their kids up just as badly. The two most ultra-conservative people in my family, my brother’s wife and my wife’s sister, are fucking terrible parents and three of their four children have irreversibly screwed up what were once promising lives as a result. The only kid who is relatively well adjusted is the one who just came out of the closet. Go figure. |
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Post by YankeeFan on Dec 5, 2023 15:04:47 GMT
Can you tell me -- in your own words -- what bias you believe the study begins with? The flaw is believing these things break evenly along political lines, and using caricatures of political ideologies to “prove” its “points.” For every namby-pamby liberal who screws up their kid, I can point to a rock-ribbed, freedom-loving conservative who fucked their kids up just as badly. The two most ultra-conservative people in my family, my brother’s wife and my wife’s sister, are fucking terrible parents and three of their four children have irreversibly screwed up what were once promising lives as a result. The only kid who is relatively well adjusted is the one who just came out of the closet. Go figure. Sir, this post was directed at oop. Please do not answer for him. |
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Post by doctorquant on Dec 5, 2023 15:11:58 GMT
And if you feel you must answer ... at least answer the actual fucking question.
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Post by YankeeFan on Dec 5, 2023 15:13:02 GMT
I’m under no delusions that everything I do as a parent is perfect. My No. 1 goal is making sure my kids are A) not assholes, and 2) comfortable in their own skin, which I never was due to relentless disciplining. I give them enough rope to make their own decisions, but am there as a safety net in case they make the “wrong” one. I have exhibited more patience than I ever thought myself capable of. And they still stress out about things. My childhood was relatively drama and trauma free, and I feel very lucky and thankful for that. I was never the most confident kid, but i eventually grew into that, as I either found success in life, or at least overcame failure. (Probably the area I lacked the most confidence was with girls. Growing up with five brothers, and going to an all boy school, in another town, will do that to you. I had barely talked to a girl before I went away to college. And, the funny thing is, girls -- pretty girls -- liked me. i just had no idea how to convert that into a relationship, let alone any physical activity.) As for parenting, I think you and I see eye to eye. I want, and prioritize, the very same things. |
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Post by YankeeFan on Dec 5, 2023 15:13:21 GMT
And if you feel you must answer ... at least answer the actual fucking question. LOL |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2023 15:20:05 GMT
My wife told me a story shortly after we started dating: When she was about to start high school, she took it upon herself to get her hair cut.
Her mom, my darling MIL, was so incensed by this act of independence that she didn’t let my wife get another haircut for a whole calendar year.
That is the kind of shit I think about whenever anyone talks about discipline and rules.
Fucking sociopaths.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2023 15:20:54 GMT
And if you feel you must answer ... at least answer the actual fucking question. Answer this, nerd!  |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2023 15:25:59 GMT
My childhood was relatively drama and trauma free, and I feel very lucky and thankful for that. I was never the most confident kid, but i eventually grew into that, as I either found success in life, or at least overcame failure. (Probably the area I lacked the most confidence was with girls. Growing up with five brothers, and going to an all boy school, in another town, will do that to you. I had barely talked to a girl before I went away to college. And, the funny thing is, girls -- pretty girls -- liked me. i just had no idea how to convert that into a relationship, let alone any physical activity.) As for parenting, I think you and I see eye to eye. I want, and prioritize, the very same things. I realized in my teenage years that the best way to deal with my mom was to just agree with everything she said and then turn around and do whatever I wanted behind her back. This filtered into much of my adult life, and is a completely awful way to live. As to your last point, that’s the kind of real-world evidence that relegates the study to clickbait. While I suspect we agree more often politically than our banter on this board suggests, we are still far from lockstep in our views. Yet we parent the same way, and our kids would probably get along swimmingly. Funny how that works. |
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Post by YankeeFan on Dec 5, 2023 15:26:16 GMT
My wife told me a story shortly after we started dating: When she was about to start high school, she took it upon herself to get her hair cut. Her mom, my darling MIL, was so incensed by this act of independence that she didn’t let my wife get another haircut for a whole calendar year. That is the kind of shit I think about whenever anyone talks about discipline and rules. Fucking sociopaths. Yeah, that's fucking insane. And, that's where you are hearing things that I am not saying. I mean much more simple things. Like your kid going to bed at a set time, and when you tell them to. I mean them having only a set amount of TV/screen time, and them turning it off when you tell them to. I mean them doing their homework. I mean that if they push a kid on the playground, you intervene, and correct that behavior. (And, you don't need to make a big seen in public. You can revisit later, but something has to be done at the moment.) |
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